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View Full Version : require an arial photo of mine?!?



tenderfootminer
11-24-2012, 07:29 PM
so anyone that files an APMA now has to take an aerial photo of his operations showing all structures workings dams etc. etc. what do you guys think of this and what are you going to do?? ak.mapper and google eath don't have clear enough shots for most of the areas I mine??????

simkiss2001
11-24-2012, 07:35 PM
yeah i was talking with the u.s army corps and they told me they have been letting stuff slide for way too long and they need to get all these pics because they cant make it out to every mine to look . but they said i can just climb to the highest spot arround and take some pics . its just to show the what kinda vegitation .

outnaboutnak
11-24-2012, 07:53 PM
Interesting. From the 2013 APMA,

U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (USACE)
WETLAND JURISDICTIONAL DETERMINATION
Provide a clear aerial photo of your operation. Aerial photos may be available from the following sources:
Google Earth, USGS Earth Explorer Website (http://earthexplorer.usgs.gov/), order from the University of Alaska Fairbanks GeoData Center (http://www2.gi.alaska.edu/services/geodata/ (907) 474-6166 uso@gi.alaska.edu), or from aerial photos you have taken yourself. The purpose of the photo is to clarify USACE jurisdiction. USACE has jurisdiction over mechanical clearing and placement of fill into waters of the U.S, which includes streams and wetlands. Generally, a Preliminary Jurisdictional Determination (PJD) will be made from the photo. A PJD is based on best available information, and makes a reasonable determination that there may be jurisdictional wetlands at a site. Your signature below indicates acceptance of the PJD. A PJD is not appealable.
Photo provided: [ ] Yes [ ] No
Signature of Responsible Party: __________________________________________________ _____________
Responsible Party Name (First Last, Position) - Printed: ___________________________________________
Business Name (if applicable) - Printed: __________________________________________________ ______
Alternatively, you may request an Approved JD, which is an official determination that jurisdictional “waters of the United States,” are present or absent on a site. Approved JDs may be appealed. An Approved JD is recommended for operations located entirely in uplands or old tailings, without a stream diversion. Operators should request an Approved JD if they believe their operation fits this description. A letter will be provided to you if a permit is not required.
Please contact USACE if you have questions or want to request an Approved JD.
Deb McAtee in Fairbanks: Debby.J.McAtee@usace.army.mil (907) 474-2166
Leslie Tose in Anchorage: Leslie.W.Tose@usace.army.mil (907) 753-2712 or (800) 478-2712



Another option you might try is http://www.flashearth.com/. The imagery on FE is better in some spots than GE, but only in some spots, overall GE is far superior.

simkiss2001
11-24-2012, 10:56 PM
they want real photos .

Marshall/Ak
11-25-2012, 10:12 AM
If push comes to shove: just hire a pilot with a small plane. Have him fly over your claims at about 1000 feet, and shoot some pics out the side window...

chickenminer
11-25-2012, 11:06 AM
Like Marshall says, we are now going to have to hire a small plane or chopper to take aerial photos. If you read the Special Public Notice by the Corp it states;

" The photo must clearly show all mine activities, including stream diversions, mechanical stripping, cuts and fills, roads, camps, and overburden stockpiles."

The only way you are going to get 'real time' aerial photos of all the above is to fly it prior to your APMA submittal.
Just another hurdle to overcome.

The comment period for these changes ends on Nov.26. If you want to add your two cents, better hurry.

outnaboutnak
11-25-2012, 11:19 AM
LINK:

INTERIM MEASURES FOR GENERAL PERMIT 2006-1944-M1
SPECIAL PUBLIC NOTICE
Placer Mining Activities within the State of Alaska (http://www.poa.usace.army.mil/Portals/34/docs/regulatory/specialpns/POA-2006-1944-M1_SPN_Interim%20measures_Placer%20GP%20Reissue.pd f)


"Comment Period: The comment period for this Public Notice is 30 days, ending on November 26, 2012. Any
questions or requests for additional information should be directed to: Alaska District, Corps of Engineers, ATTN:
Ms. Leslie W. Tose, Regulatory Division, Post Office Box 6898, JBER, Alaska 99506-0898, email
leslie.w.tose@usace.army.mil , phone (907) 753-2712 or toll free in Alaska at (800) 478-2712."

DanAk
11-25-2012, 11:27 AM
Just got my packet yesterday, have not looked thru it yet, this is for new permits ? my 5 year apma runs out in 14 so may not need to do this till then, gotta review the new packet..

chickenminer
11-25-2012, 04:15 PM
Dan,
It appears so. Only on new APMA's submitted after Jan.1, 2013. I think those of us that still have a couple yrs left on our 5 yr APMA are good to go for now.
Seems we slide on the old PJD until then.

simkiss2001
11-25-2012, 07:24 PM
they also want a cross -section sketch now too .

flintgreasewood
11-25-2012, 07:38 PM
I may have lucked out with "Flashearth". The resolution is 10 times that of the Googlearth shots of my claims. Everything that needs to be seen is very clear. If you haven't checked out Flashearth yet, you should.

chickenminer
11-25-2012, 08:47 PM
they also want a cross -section sketch now too .

Cross-section diagram is nothing new. Been that way for years.

chickenminer
11-25-2012, 09:00 PM
I may have lucked out with "Flashearth". The resolution is 10 times that of the Googlearth shots of my claims. Everything that needs to be seen is very clear. If you haven't checked out Flashearth yet, you should.

Kurt... WOW! Thanks for the tip. Not really going to help if they require all the 'real time' stuff, but GREAT site! Maybe they would accept sketching your operation on print out from these aerials? Then supplementing with on-the-ground photos. Just a thought.

I wonder how often they update these aerials? It appears from my area in the Fortymile they were taken in Spring of 2009. Can clearly see where I plowed out my roads !

DanAk
11-25-2012, 11:18 PM
The photo's will not be a problem, I have a plane fly in supply's every couple of weeks..

Brian Berkhahn
11-26-2012, 01:59 PM
I just heard back from the Army Corp and this is ONLY for Mechanical Operations.. NOT suction dredging. Leslie will be coming down to the AMA this week to meet with us, apparently there's alot more to the story then what's in the notice. She admits she messed up on the verbage and appologizes to everyone for that.

DanAk
11-26-2012, 03:20 PM
Keep us updated on that Brian, Thanks !

outnaboutnak
11-26-2012, 08:11 PM
"Also, the state DNR-DMLW and BLM have photos of most of the mining operations, from routine overflights."

They are always watching..........

From the emailed reply that I received on the subject.

simkiss2001
11-26-2012, 10:10 PM
hey what have you been up to dan . have not seen you online in awhile

Geo Jim
11-26-2012, 10:11 PM
Wow! That Flashearth.com is great! I wonder how you can download pictures. It sure would not let me, nor gave any hints about how to do it. Oh I guess i could get my camera out and take a picture of the monitor which i have done before, but the product is always crappy.
Geo Jim

simkiss2001
11-27-2012, 08:03 AM
depending on what kinda cell phone you have you can flash the pic . on my phone i can take a pic of what i am looking at on the web .

astrobouncer
11-27-2012, 08:12 AM
You can always hit the print screen key on your keyboard and that will save any image you are looking at into your computer memory. Then you can open up paint and paste the image there (by pressing crtl v) then save it how you want (as jpg or bmp etc).

Marshall/Ak
11-27-2012, 08:27 AM
Wow! That Flashearth.com is great! I wonder how you can download pictures. It sure would not let me, nor gave any hints about how to do it. Oh I guess i could get my camera out and take a picture of the monitor which i have done before, but the product is always crappy.
Geo Jim

Geo: You can still make pictures using the "Print Screen" function key on your keyboard. I've been using that and "WordPad" to print them out. Kind of a slow "PITA" method, you can only do one pic at a time, but at least it works.

For those who may be interested and are using Windows XP, here's the sequence:
When you get the view you want to print, hit "Print Screen"
"Start"
"All Programs"
"Accessories"
"WordPad"
ALT-V (both keys same time)
"File"
"Print"

This works with any program you are viewing, not just FlashEarth

flintgreasewood
11-27-2012, 11:38 AM
Hey, Marshall, thanks for that sequence for printing. And a big thanks to OutnaboutnAK for the original tip on Flashearth.

Geo Jim
11-27-2012, 12:41 PM
Thanks Marshall.
I have always just accepted that I could not print stuff like that if it would not let me. I could seem to do it the way you told me. I have Windows 7. ALT and Prt Sc, then pasting it in Paint worked just fine.

After fiddling around with Flash Earth some more, I realized it is no better than Google Earth for imagery out the the Alaska Bush. Where we really had aerial photos, there is the same old crappy Landsat pics from the 1970s. Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Geo Jim

outnaboutnak
11-27-2012, 05:17 PM
Thanks Marshall.
I have always just accepted that I could not print stuff like that if it would not let me. I could seem to do it the way you told me. I have Windows 7. ALT and Prt Sc, then pasting it in Paint worked just fine.

After fiddling around with Flash Earth some more, I realized it is no better than Google Earth for imagery out the the Alaska Bush. Where we really had aerial photos, there is the same old crappy Landsat pics from the 1970s. Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Geo Jim

Prnt Scrn works well. I paste into MS Paint, then cut the portion of the screen I want out and paste to a new file. This eliminates the rest of the junk around the computer screen edge like the tool bar. Just watch where your mouse arrow is.

Flash Earth is very limited, and for the most part worse than GE, but there are several areas, especially around Fairbanks where they have a very detailed, very current image.

LipCa
11-27-2012, 10:14 PM
I use Irfanview http://www.irfanview.com/ to do the same. It's a free download and have had no problems in years of using it.

Brian Berkhahn
11-28-2012, 04:08 PM
Had our meeting with Leslie Tose from the Army Corp this morning, as I stated before this has absolutely nothing to do with suction dredging and the verbage on the first page will be changed from "Placer Mining Activities..." to "Mechanical Mining Activities...". For you with mechanical operations this is nothing different then what you've been already doing with your APMA, there seems to be a disconnect between the USACE and the DNR with the aerial photo's already supplied with the APMA'S. Since the USACE is not getting the info they need from the APMA from the DNR they are going straight to the source for the info that is needed (and this will be addressed with Brent Goodrum of the DNR). Leslie said that a Google Earth photo will be fine and if you need to draw in your new roads and operation that would be fine. Personally I like to use Terra Server because the pictures are black & white which makes things easier to see and easier for the agencies to copy and distribute if necessary as a color picture usually turns up as a black blob when copied on a copy machine. If you can take a current picture of your operation from higher elevation that would be better for you and them.. the more current the better.

Even tho today is the end of the comment period Leslie will still accept comments for the next 2 weeks (December 20th) at:

Alaska District, Corps of Engineers
Attn: Ms. Leslie W. Tose
Regulatory Division
Post office Box 6898
JBER, Alaska 99506-0898

EMAIL:
leslie.w.tose@usace.army.mil

phone: 907-753-2712
or toll free in Alaska: (800) 475-2712

Before you go emailing or sending Leslie any "hate" mail just keep in mind she is pro-mining and goes to bat for us ALOT (as much as a government agent can). So please be respectful in your questions or comments as she really is good people.. she's just doing her job.

outnaboutnak
11-28-2012, 06:03 PM
Brian, thanks for the update, and thanks for the tip on TerraServer. I immediately found an area that I have been looking at but the GE resolution is terrible. TS had a good picture, but most of the area was covered in clouds. Still, I found some good information from it. I was taken aback at the cost of downloads though. Do you subscribe monthly, or purchase as needed?

Brian Berkhahn
11-28-2012, 08:15 PM
Well apparently the old site is shut down and the new site figured out that it was still possible to copy their pics so they put a nice little notice right in the middle of the pic.. click on any of the preview buttons below the main pic. HOWEVER.. I just found this free site that allows you to get the same pics that you would have to pay for on terraserver. http://msrmaps.com/Default.aspx

Hope it works for you.

chickenminer
11-28-2012, 11:12 PM
Brian,
Thank you for the update! You're a good guy and we are lucky to
have you on the AMA small mining committee.

DanAk
11-29-2012, 07:06 AM
Yes agree with Dick, lucky to have you on the small miners committee, Thanks Brian for all you do.

Steve Herschbach
11-29-2012, 09:18 AM
Yes, Brian, thank you very much for all you do!

tenderfootminer
11-29-2012, 03:43 PM
I concur thanks Brian

tenderfootminer
11-29-2012, 04:31 PM
Marshall that works on my comp. with any thing but Flash Earth lol picture comes out numbers???

chickengold
12-01-2012, 08:49 AM
It appears so. Only on new APMA's submitted after Jan.1, 2013. I think those of us that still have a couple yrs left on our 5 yr APMA are good to go for now.
Seems we slide on the old PJD until then.

I talked to Leslie last week regarding the timeline for aerials on an existing 5 yr APMA and she suggested that an aerial would have to be provided either when the new APMA application was submitted or when a new GP was authorized. Most of us are operating on the GP that is effective until 2014, so that may be the effective date for this requirement.

Since Leslie has stated that she will accept comments until DEC 20, I would urge everyone to send comments. It's absurd to require aerial photos from individuals to make a JD when the Corps has stated in the past that they will work from DNR's APMA. It is also absurd for the Corp to require aerial photos, but allow Google Earth or some other less up to date photo with poor resolution to make a JD. It's just more redundant paper work placed upon this country's producers by this country's #*@#!!

flintgreasewood
12-01-2012, 09:32 AM
Though I'm fortunate to have clear Flash Earth photos of my claim, I still wrote to Leslie to express my displeasure with the ruling. Thanks, Brian

overtheedge
12-01-2012, 10:21 AM
Whoa there. Before anyone goes off on a rampage, you might wanna read the 39 pages of the SCOTUS opinion on Rapanos vs United States.

The case against Rapanos was VACATED. The SCOTUS determined that all the authority the lower courts had granted CoE in excess of the CWA's actual wording were non-existent.

This aerial photo requirement is the end result of CoE getting their wings trimmed.

On bottom of page 27/top 28 the opinion holds that "significant nexus" concept applies to adjacency to tributaries of traditional navigable waters.

Then states on page 30 where Congress' commerce power extends to.

On page 31, SCOTUS shows how the previous lower courts had effectively granted CoE the authority/power to regulate the entire country.

I was particularly humored by the statement on page 26 about fill is intended to stay put and therefore shouldn't be blanket termed as pollutants. Italics are my interpretation.
-------------------------------------
Reading the new permit application, the only problem I see is the non-appealability of preliminary determinations.
-----------------------
I am NOT a lawyer and I don't play one on TV. However, I read just fine and have a fair command of the Amerenglish language.

Read the opinion. Just type in "Rapanos vs United States" in your search engine. Then go to the SCOTUS site.

Just my opinion, but this is a good thing.
eric

Brian Berkhahn
12-01-2012, 10:50 AM
Thanks everyone for the compliments.. just trying to do what I can.

This past weekend I went to the Alaska Strategic & Critical Minerals Summit in Fairbanks and Tom Crawford had an excellent presentation on what it takes to permit a large mine. It takes over 100 Yes.. I said "One Hundred" different permits before a large mine can get underway. It really made me think Wow.. and here we are crying about giving the USACE a current aerial photo. Don't get me wrong, I don't want more permits either and this whole Army Corp issue needs to get under control, after all.. who out there can afford 5000.00 per acre for mitigation on wetlands?

Sheldon Maier from the 40 Mile set up a meeting with Brent Goodrum, Ed Fogles, Allan from the DEC and a few others who's names currently escape me. I gotta say I was absolutely floored when Ed started out the meeting by saying "What do we need to do to make things easier". Apparently they are looking at totally scraping most of all the current regulations and starting over. Lt. Governor Mead Treadwell confirmed this at the Summit by stating there is a "war on permiting".. that it is totally obserd on what is needed and they need to reduce the amount of permits needed. Between Sheldon Maier, Jim Swearingin, Roger Burggraf, Jim Dininger and myself we unloaded on them pretty good about everything.. MSHA, USACE, EPA, DEC, RS2477, etc. and not once did they disagree. Allan stated that the Medium Suction dredge permit is coming out for review here in the next month and nothing is being added but a couple things have been taken out and changed. There was even talk about the State taking primacy of the USACE which I think would be a good thing.. yes granted the state would still have to follow the federal rules but if a lawsuit were to happen would you rather to go through the whole 9th court bs or have the State do it? Anyways this is just talk right now.

So I would like to personally thank Sheldon Maier for this wonderful meeting with the Government agents so please give him a pat on the back and a big thank you when you see him.. this is an awesome start which we at the AMA will not let fail. I am also very happy to see the broken bond between the 40 Mile Mining Dist. and the AMA mended, we need to work togethor to defeat the Governmental Enviromentalists that are trying to shut us all down. If we can't get along and don't work togethor then they win!

By the way, here is a new mapping project of the state the DNR is doing. http://www.alaskamapped.org/

overtheedge
12-01-2012, 03:27 PM
Thanks for attending Brian. Some of us forget (maybe just me) that a run from Anchorage to Fairbanks and back is quite the weekend drive to attend a meeting.
eric

Brian Berkhahn
12-03-2012, 07:53 AM
Flying is alot cheaper.. especially with my truck where I get 7mpg downhill with a tail wind :-)

Marshall/Ak
12-03-2012, 07:59 PM
I agree with the others: Brian is doing a SUPERB job representing miners, particularly those in south-central Alaska. I find the new state mapping effort to be interesting. For those who may want to give it a trial run, here is the link:
http://browse.alaskamapped.org/#browse

Unfortunately, for my claims the resolution was no better than other mapping utilities...maybe I was doing something wrong? (your results may be better than mine...for some reason resolution seems to vary widely from one place to another)

Regarding the "Print-Key" function not working with flash-earth: I just tried flash-earth for the first time and PrintKey DOES work for me. Maybe it not working for some has something to do with the kind of browser one is using? (I'm using Windows 7) Resolution appeared to be identical to the old MSR-Maps, which unfortunately has been shut down. Info:
http://forums.gpsreview.net/viewtopic.php?t=25566
Sad to see that service go...I used it extensively for years.

Marshall

Brian Berkhahn
12-03-2012, 10:25 PM
Thanks Marshall.. I appreciate the kind comments. The state mapping program is currently in the making, I learned about it at the Summit. It might take them awhile to get down to where our claims are. I too was hoping for some different pics but oh well.. guess I'll just have to wait.

Geo Jim
12-04-2012, 10:37 AM
I gave http://browse.alaskamapped.org/#browse a try just now, but it is messed up!! They have some major bugs to work out of that site. I tried to zoom in on the Anchorage area, but it would shoot out into the Gulf of Alaska. This happened over and over. So I tried to draw a square over the area of interest to zoom in on, but that did not work either.
Geo Jim

tenderfootminer
12-04-2012, 01:59 PM
just wanted to say again ....what a great bunch of guys/gals this forum has!!! thx.ws